MINT Training: Business Development For Service Businesses

by | Nov 18, 2021

“Sales Is An Investment” – Rita Callendar shares with us her 40 years of business experience in her one-hour (and a bit) session all about how you need to INVEST to get sales, but not with money… by investing in yourself, your business and your relationships.

I’m Rita Callendar, the Business Optimist. I’ve been in business development and running businesses and my own businesses and working for corporates for oh yes, forty years. Gosh, it does seem a long time. I’ve just celebrated my 60th birthday. And that gave me time to reflect on everything that I’ve done in the last 40 years. And what a ride it’s been, as they say, I’ve been on that journey..

Watch the training video below…

Transcript of Video


I’m just trying to energise. Yeah, that’s right. Let’s have some energy in the room, even down Zoom, you know what I’m like. I can’t sit still for a minute. You’ve got to have energy guys and you’ve got to energise yourself every morning because sales and business development. Oh my goodness. Does that take some energy and some resilience?


Well, for those who don’t know me, I’m Rita Callendar, the Business Optimist. I’ve been in business development and running businesses and my own businesses and working for corporates for oh yes, forty years. Gosh, it does seem a long time. I’ve just celebrated my 60th birthday. And that gave me time to reflect on everything that I’ve done in the last 40 years. And what a ride it’s been, as they say, I’ve been on that journey. It sounds like the X factor doesn’t it when I say I’ve been on that journey.


But, but those who don’t know, I mean, I started off in London. That’s where I started my work. And that was a really steep learning curve. I was thrown into things at the deep end really quickly. I had to sort of manage situations I’d never been in before. It was in a very male dominated environment. I was the only woman in the team at that time of 20 men and me. So you can imagine how you have to not only overcome that side of things, but also just fight your corner. But actually when I reflected on it, before I was going to do this session, it actually stood me in good stead because it made me resilient. It made me toughen up. It made me stronger and made me realise that I needed all of those skills if I was going to survive in this industry.


It’s strange because when I actually started out in my career, I never thought that I’d be doing sales. That’s not something that was actually, you know, when people say, oh, what do you want to do when you grow up? It was never sales. I was actually wanting to work in the foreign office and the diplomatic core. That was what I wanted to do because somebody told me I was a very diplomatic person. And I said, really? I said, I didn’t realise. And I looked at that and I had actually applied to them. But then I

actually got another job in London and I was actually working in the city. And then I went from that into buying for Marks and Spencer. So I ended up doing sales and buying things in for them and selling that to Marks and Spencer. So I was this kind of go between if you like bringing stuff in from Italy and France, lots of different places.


And it’s amazing the skills that you learn along the way, communication was key. Learning how to get your message over succinctly and clearly, particularly when, when I wasn’t, you know, when English wasn’t their first language. So communication is so important. And I think that’s where the smile comes in.


Interestingly, I can see that Nathalie Paris is obviously on the call with us today. Being a resident French Geordie or whatever you call yourself yeah, the French Geordie. But I found that, you know, you had to be very clear in your communication and obviously be engaging. So it was really important that you actually put your personality across and people actually, you know sort of bolt into you as a person. So even down to what you were wearing, seems to be key.


I mean, obviously that was in the 1980s and 1990s you’d be wearing, so I would go in with, you know, quite dynamic suits with broad shoulders, red jackets, lots of colours. I was doing the Margaret Thatcher thing, you know, really looking at it, I probably looked about 80. I think I look younger now than I did then actually now.


So it was interesting and it’s all about the package, but when you go out in the morning, you’re actually selling from that moment you step out the door. If you are a business owner, you are selling the moment you step out because you are your business. I would think the majority of people on the call today are probably sole traders or very small micro businesses. So if you are, then it’s like me now working as the Business Optimist, it’s all about me because I am my business. So you must remember to always have that persona in the back of your head when you’re stepping out and you know, with that smile and that intent. Be engaging. You know, look as if you’re interested. I know we all have bad days. I mean, I’m genuinely interested in people and their stories. So I love learning about people and, you know, taking that all on board.


So I think it’s really important that you actually remember that when you step out that you are, that salesperson. Sales seems to get a bad name. And I never quite understand why, because without sales, you’re not going to have a business. You need sales to make money. So this is the number one priority for you. You can’t pay your mortgage, you can’t buy a new car, you can’t do anything unless you sell something. So it needs to be a priority for you. And you need to think about it every day, about how you are developing your business.


I was discussing with Nicola before we came on the call, the difference between sales and business development. I actually call myself a business developer because that’s actually being more in it for the long haul and the long game.


With sales, you might have some candles to sell and you want to sell them quickly. Fair enough. Business development is what it says. It’s development over a period of time and you’re wooing your clients and you’re trying to attract them to you. It’s all about investment. So if you invest in your sales and you build you know, while you’re building a foundation effectively, then people will be attracted to that and they will start to come. So it’s all about building that and that attraction and they’re going to be attracted to you. So you’ve got to make sure that you’re authentic and that people really recognise something in you that they like and the values and they’re buying into you as a person.


Now I’ve written some things which are on the slide here, which I think the next slide that my able assistant is very kindly putting up there for me there. I did say sales personality rather than business development, but they are similar kind of traits, if you like. The list I’ve written here, sorry, is, is actually things that people have said about me. And I did a survey. I put it out on a poll and these were some of the things that came back and it’s actually very difficult asking people what they think about you. And you’re always hoping it’s going to be good stuff. And actually I was really quite, it was quite heartfelt when some of the lovely things that came back that people said, that they said about me and it did make me feel good because I thought, well, the things I’m trying to do, it’s actually working. People are seeing that in me. So if we look at the list there, I mean, I’ve put energetic. I must admit, I am an energetic person. I find it very hard to sit still.


I’m very animated. I always usually have my hands going. There’s a lot going on, but that’s just me and my personality. But then I do have days where I don’t always have that energy because obviously, you know, you just don’t, you have those days where you’re not feeling as energised, but you’ve got to remember, you’ve got to have your game face on. And you’ve somehow got to find that within you to actually get that energy and energise. People buy into that. If you’re energetic, they feel energetic. And you know, you need to feel that you’re inspiring them. And you know, you are, you are giving them something to work with.


Resilience. Now, this is an interesting one because over the years, the amount of times when I think about when I’ve picked up a call, a phone, speak to somebody and they can be rude, they can be difficult. They don’t want to speak to you. Whatever it might be. And if you know, they’ve put the phone down on you, well, that’s, you know, you learn over time, but you just have to accept that and move on. You can’t let that bother you. So you need to dig deep and just overcome that and just move on if you let get to you. But resilience is something though you have to learn. We were speaking about this before, and I think that really, because of all the knocks I’ve had in my career and all, I’ve had lots of wonderful high points and I’ve had some really bad, low points, but without those challenges and those low points, you’re never going to learn resilience. So everybody who’s had challenges has to learn to overcome something and move on.


My business that I’d built up for those who don’t know is there are some on the call who will know it. The business that I’ve invested in for 25 years actually went into administration. Now that was 25 years hard work. And it was taken out of my hands due to a funding issue that I was actually caught up in, in, in a nationwide funding process. And I was caught up in that from Europe. And unfortunately the length of time it took actually, you know, ruined my business because of that. And I have other friends who’ve also gone through similar things. So we’ve all ended up in this little sort of group of people who speak quite regularly about what it’s like to lose your business and how you’ve overcome that.


And it’s strange because all the people that I know that that’s happened to, and this includes even people like Richard Branson, all of those people that you look up to and think, oh God, they’re amazing people. Most of these people have lost their business or had to overcome a challenge at some time, and it’s never been plain sailing. So you need to work with that and make sure that you just keep learning and learning and reacting to those challenges and dig deep. You really need to dig deep and find something within yourself to overcome that.


I mean, I found at the time, I actually, it used to be very useful for me to write down on a nighttime what

I was feeling and how I felt about things. A little journal. So that was, you know, about maybe what I had found difficult that day. You know, it was challenging for me and just getting that down on paper. Cause sometimes when you see it in black and white, it’s quite interesting because we, don’t all, I think today with computers and screens and all this sort of stuff, we tend not to write as much.


I mean, I probably come from the Victorian era when we had probably abacuses and we didn’t even have computers. So actually, and I’ve got a beautiful fountain pen. My wonderful husband of 30 years bought me when we got married and it’s a Mont Blanc pen that I will always cherish. And I use that to write things down with that pen and it actually has significance and meaning. And it’s actually, I also write in the Minties planner. We all love the Minties planner. Yeah, exactly. And you’ll be getting yours soon. So it’s really, really oh, I can see that Nathalie said, yeah, she writes in a journal. There we go. You see, so that’s good to see that someone’s finding that useful. And there’s something about seeing it physically on paper that really helps. It really, really does help.


Passionate. I’m hoping I’m coming across today as being passionate about my subject, because I really am passionate about business development and sales, but business development, that’s not hard and pushy and overwhelming for people. It’s all about being in there for the long game and actually building relationships with people. I’ve never seen myself as a pushy person. I just like to learn about people and what they stand for. Do they have similar values to me? Would they like to work with me because our values are similar. You know, you, we’re not going to be everyone’s cup of tea. It’s a bit like Marmite, isn’t it. You either love it or you hate it. I’ll be, you know, I’ve spoken to people over the years and I’m not quite their thing. And I have to accept that to them, I’m not the kind of person they want to work with.


And you just have to accept that, that everybody has their own tribe of people and you’ll be attracting different people to you. The ones that probably matter. And in a way you only really want the people who want to work with you. You don’t want to work with people who don’t want to work with you. It’s never, ever going to be a good fit. So don’t worry if people, you know you, don’t quite seem as if they want to work with you or they’re not, you know, not happy about what you stand for. Well, that’s fine, but there’ll be other people for them and you need to move on.


Empathetic. This is quite interesting. I was, somebody told me just last week, they felt I had great empathy and it came out of the conversation because the guy I was speaking to, I remembered that his dog was ill and he adored his dog.


It was 15 years old. Now for those people who have pets, you know how important it is, these, these dogs and animals and you know, in, in your life and cats and whatever it might be. And then unfortunately, when I spoke to him, well, the first thing I asked him, I said oh, how’s he doing? I know you had to go to the vets. And then he looked very teary-eyed and said, unfortunately he lost the dog. The dog had had to be put down. And he was very tearful, actually and very sad and very upset. So I spent a good 10, 15 minutes actually talking about that with him, nothing to do with the business development and the fact that I’d taken time out of my day to actually show that empathy because it’s crushing, isn’t it? It’s like losing anybody who, you know, who is dear to you or a loved one or an animal it’s, it’s so important that people take that time out to have that empathy and that you’re not just there to do a job.


You know, we’re all human beings and we’re actually speaking to each other. So you must always show empathy. And please remember, you know, if people have said something to you, you know, about a loved one or something, try and, you know, write that down in your notes. Oh God, you know, they, they, might’ve had a really bad time over the last few weeks or whatever. And we know with COVID, people have had some terrible times and they’ve been struggling with their mental health.


There was another gentleman I spoke to where I found out, because he found the COVID situation lockdown so bad, he’d actually been off work for two months. Well, he was willing to share that with me because it actually, you know, it was something he felt he could open up to me and speak to me about that. And of course I would never divulge who that person is, but he was able to sort of share that, that difficulty with me.


And I think it’s important that you, you know, you always remember that somebody might be having a

bad day. Hopefully I am optimistic because that’s my name, but I always do try and look on the bright side of things. You’ve got to have that positive outlook and you’ve got to really, really push that side of it. You know, we might be having a difficult day and we might be feeling a bit more pessimistic, but you’ve really then just got to try and pull it back and try your hardest to do that.


As I mentioned, I’m curious, I like to know about people. And I think the more you know about people, the more likely you are you’re actually going to be able to develop that long-term relationship with them and what makes them tick. I’m thinking about people who are on this call, you know, I know bits about their lives and what has happened and it, it, I just find it so interesting and it’s, we all love stories. We still, in our childhood, it’s all about stories and we want to know those stories and we buy into them and they will remember us for that.


Confidence. Now, this is an interesting one because the thing is not everybody, as we know is confident. And you’ve got to sort of find a way of actually showing that you do have confidence in yourself and your skill. And you’ve got to really try and express that to people because you see the thing is if you’re trying to sell your service and you show that you’re not confident about it, people are going to think, oh, well, gosh, will they be able to do the job for me? Because if they’re not very confident about it, then they’re making me feel really unsure. So even though you might not feel very confident inside, you’ve got to put your game face on.


You’ve got to try and, you know, demonstrate that in some way and also be conscientious. I mean, I put conscientious down there because I was speaking to a client recently I was working with and they said that someone had said that they would do this and that for them, you know, they would develop this and this would happen and they’d make so many sales and blah, blah, blah. And what would happen, you know, only a matter of weeks later, they hadn’t done anything and they let them down. So they felt that they weren’t dependable. If you’re going to be wanting to sell your business, you really need to show that you’re dependable and that you’re a safe pair of hands. You know, I’ve always felt throughout my life I have been conscientious and people have told me that and I would never ever let anybody down.


I’ve always had that in my mind, even those days where I might’ve not been feeling so well. I remember I had a bad back in my career and I was ill, but somehow I always managed to be there because you just don’t want to let people down. You, you want them to sort of know, know that you’re going to be there for them. You’re going to give them as much as you can. It’s that 100% you’re going to deliver, because remember they paid for your service. And I know that sometimes you can’t always do it. You know, things do happen, but at least try and be as dependable as you can. And we all know. I mean, if I ask somebody to do something for me, I get really upset if they don’t actually deliver. And if, and if they can’t, I see Nicola’s nodding away there and you don’t want to feel let down.


So you’ve got to put yourself in their shoes. You know, I mean, I’m working with a client at the moment and Nicola will know who that client is. When I say, he said, oh, I’ll ring you back tomorrow. I’ll ring you back next week. I’ll send you that proposal tomorrow. And then I get into the office and I find out he hasn’t done any of those things. Now that makes my job really hard because then I’ve got to be this person that then tries to sort that out and get the client back out on site. I actually spoke to a client recently and they said that we had been red flagged. I thought, oh God, that sounds terrible. Red flags. And that was red flagged because on three occasions, the person I was working for actually was supposed to send something and they hadn’t. And so then we went into the red flag category.


Now none of you on this call want to be red flags. So if you say you’re going to do something, make sure you do it. And if you think there’s a reason that you might not deliver it, make sure you communicate that with them. So we’re back to that communication thing again and keep that, you know, that channel open, make sure they hear from you, you know, they don’t actually just forget about them and then move on to the next person. Cause that often happens in sales and business development. You forget about your current clients and you move on trying to find new ones. And then you see, you need to remember to keep respecting them because they’re still, you know, with you and they’re still paying you and they expect something from you. The amount of times, you know, hear from people that have been let down.


I honestly, I haven’t gotten time to tell you so, so many, so be conscientious and dependable. If anybody thinks there’s anything else they want to add to that list, I’d love to hear from you. And when we’ve finished this presentation because I think it’s important that we know what else people think is important in their sales personality. But these are some of the things that people have said about me and my service.


So if we move on to the next slide, this was really about what is your sales mindset you know, sort of traits versus skills as I put it here, traits versus skills. You see skills, I suppose, something like writing a bid or bid writing is a skill. I feel that I’ve got traits that I’m, I am conscientious and I’m a good listener. And things like that. So you’ve got to think about, you know, what your traits are, because with skills, we can learn those, but with traits, they take a little bit longer to try and build up over time.


So if you think that you’re weak in a particular area, you know, you need to work out how are you going to actually improve on that? Do you know, it’s really funny after 40 years in business, I’m still learning. I’m still trying to improve myself. I’m still trying to think about what I can do better. So there’s not a day that goes by where you don’t learn something new, you know, and for me, it’s, it’s, I just love it. I get really excited when I learn something new and somebody is also willing to maybe take time out to show me something. I love that as well. You know, that they will share that with me. So when I’m speaking to a client and possible clients, I like to ask questions. I like to find out more about what makes them tick, what their expectations are, you know, what their goals are.


I mean, in Mint, you know, we talk a lot, don’t we about goals and objectives and where you see yourself and all of that. And so you need to ask this of your clients. So you’re buying in, you know, it’s so important that you invest. Yet again, that word invest, in the beginning of this journey with your clients. That’s all about important time.


Smile. If you’re having fun, they’re going to be more relaxed. It’s almost impossible, isn’t it, to smile at somebody because they will always smile back. You know, they’re not, it’s very difficult not to smile. If somebody smiles at you, you just react in that way. There is something, as simple as that. I went, and I mentioned this to Nicola, I went to a little event at the weekend where people were trying to sell their wares. And it was really strange because I went into one of the places. There was somebody who was standing with their arms, crossed like this. They didn’t smile at me, even though I smiled at them, I

actually said, hello. And they were actually looking down at their phone while I went in. Now I find that completely unacceptable. If you’re there to sell. Now that immediately put me on the back foot and it just didn’t make me want to buy from them. I really didn’t.


And then I went into another place further along. There was a lovely, engaging girl there. She’d really taken the time to think about what she was wearing. She’d got herself all prepared. She had her makeup on and she’d got a beautiful dress. She came right out to the front, welcomed me. Thank you for taking the time and the interest in coming to see my stall. Is there something in particular, you know, you’d like to look at, I mean, how amazing, you know, the difference, you know, she, wasn’t sitting there on her phone and looking, you know, and she smiled at me and now I bought from that girl. I bought from her.


I mean, yes, this stuff is lovely. I probably would have bought, you know, something, but it was just lovely. And I, and I will go back and I’ll see her again. And she deserves to make that sale. She put in the effort, she put in the time, not none of this is a free lunch. If anybody thinks sales is going to be easy and they need to get off this call because it’s not easy, it’s hard work. It’s hard work, and you’ve got to invest in it. So really make sure that you put in time in your business to think about how are you going to improve your business development and think about your sales strategy. As we’ve highlighted on the slide here, your job is to solve their problem. How many of you think about that? What is the challenge? What is the problem?


What is it you’re going to do that’s going to solve that problem? It was interesting. I went to a meeting. It was quite a high powered meeting. I won’t say who the client was, but they’re actually, their turnover was 250 million. So that might give you an idea of scale. And there were nine people in the room, and we were trying to get this proposal over the line, and there’d been all this discussion and everything around the table, and then it still didn’t seem to have got anywhere. So I thought, well, I’ll have to just do something different. What am I, what can I say here? So I was thinking in the back of my mind, so I just turned to the same director, him sat next to me. And I just said, what else do we have to do to solve your problem? And what do we have to do to get this over the line?


So sometimes you’ve got to be as frank and open to that and just literally say, and then he came back with the response, well, you need to do this, this and this. And it needs to be 5,000 pounds cheaper now. Interesting, isn’t it? So we’d sat for an hour in that room. And out of one question, I got the response that we were looking for. So then I said, well, you know, will you meet us halfway? If we come in two and a half thousand down, it’s a bit like negotiating on a house, isn’t it? Will you meet us halfway? And the answer was, yes. Yeah. So you, so it’s, so it’s interesting that even just sometimes you can be waffling and doing all of this stuff in the background, but if you’re actually more direct with them, you see how many people actually go into a situation saying, what’s your budget?


Do we know what you working with? Because do you know if you’re working with a client, what budget they’re working with? You know, they might be thinking 20,000, and you’ve put in a proposal for 35,000, or it might be a thousand pounds. And, you know, so it’s really, I see that Helen has actually put that she does. And I see that’s because she’s in marketing and sales. She understands because you can spend hours talking to people, and then you’re on completely different, you know agenda. It’s no good if they’re thinking two, and you’re thinking 10, so you need to really bottom that out very quickly. And I’m hoping through all the training, the finance training, cause I know you’ve got Carolyn on the line here. We’ve got obviously Nicola here and you talk about, you know, let’s talk about money. Money is often the key thing that’s going to get this sorted.


You know, you need to think about what budgets are and really get down to the nitty gritty of that. So remember your job is to solve their problem. So if you don’t take anything else today, away from this presentation, remember what is that challenge? And even ask them, tell me, what is your challenge and what is it you’re struggling with. What’s really problematic for you. The other things here, I’m just checking the time. Are we OK for time? Yeah.


Be a good listener. Well, we all know that’s important. It’s, it’s really easy for us to just go into a meeting and then just start talking all about ourselves and what we can do and what we can offer them and blah, blah, blah. But you haven’t really maybe heard anything about what they’ve got to say. You know, and you really need to think about, you know, what their problem is, just as I said before and be a good listener, you need to build long-term relationships.


It’s not going to happen overnight. I think they say, Helen might put me right on this. It’s usually about seven times you actually probably speak to somebody before you probably get anywhere. I think Sarah is on the line as well. Yeah. She’s nodding there. And I’ve, it’s funny because I’ve been running CRM obviously programs for people and you find that they show quite clearly because you’re logging this on a CRM system. You can see the process and how you’ve developed it. So maybe about four or five, I’ve gone into writing a proposal for them called six. So then putting it in front of management, or seven, they brought us in to do a presentation. So there’s there, there were lots of, you know lots of touch points, which think is what Helen’s saying there. And of course now we have the digital touch points and that’s why it’s so important that your digital stuff supports what you’re saying.


So if they go off onto LinkedIn and all of these other places, you know, you’ve got to have this consistent message and it’s all streamlined and it looks good. So when they’re going back off to do, it’s interesting. Cause I noticed the other day I found that somebody had actually gone to look up my LinkedIn and a few of the other things in the website straight after I’d spoken to them. So it’s the first thing we all do. Isn’t this? Oh, let’s have a look at the website. Oh, what are they doing on LinkedIn? Oh, what they’re doing there? And you do do that. So it’s like anything. So make sure that that’s all looking good and the message is standardised across everything. And that you’re the same persona everywhere. So they’re not getting a different person in front of them. They want authenticity.


They want to know it’s the same person and you’ve got to inspire genuine trust. Nobody likes people who come out with stuff, you know, that isn’t true or it’s not correct. So make sure that everything is genuine you say. Consistently follow up. We touched on that before. Do not say that you’re going to get back to them on Monday with a proposal. And then you don’t. People hate it. Really, really hate it.


And as we mentioned, be dependable. So this process is very similar to just networking. You will, you will have to do the same sort of things. When you go into a room, you need to be a good listener. You need to kind of, you know, asking about, you know, what have they done at the weekend, try and find out a bit more about them, build that relationship. And don’t we just love it when we go into a room and somebody remembers you, and I say, oh yeah, I spoke to you last week.


Oh, that was so interesting. What you were telling me about your life on the beach, where you run along there every time you get a sale, and you shake your hands and you do all of that and say, I remember you. So give them something to remember you by that has to be something that they can sort of link to you and think, oh, yes, that was the person that collects. I don’t know what it might be. Some kind of pottery. So this lady does scuba diving on a weekend. This one’s interested in wildlife, whatever it might be, try and find that something so you can connect with them. And then it shows that you’ve been interested.


So I think we’re almost coming to the end of the slide. We only had a few slides cause we didn’t want to over egg it with slides.


So the skills it can be learned. You can be trained in that. Traits, as I mentioned are inherent and learned over time through repeated experience and practice. I have learned to be resilient because I’ve just done that all the time, time and time again, I’ve had to overcome challenging people, difficult situations. You just need to find that something in yourself and you think, well, what’s the worst that can happen? Now keep saying that to yourself. It can’t be any worse than that. You know, don’t be afraid. Don’t be fearful, you know, put yourself out there. And you know, my dad always said to me, shy bairns get nowt. I’m a geordie girl. And he used to say that when I’d say I was nervous about something, or I didn’t appear confident, he said, just shy bairns. And then he’d say, what’s the worst that can happen Rita?. And he was right. What’s the worst?


They can just say no, just say no. And you just move on. And you learn from that. So be resilient. And remember, you’re making an investment in your business and you’re in it for the long game. Business development. It’s not a quick fix. So make sure that you’re investing and investing, investing every day and it will work. It will come back and you will make that sale. I’m here as testament to that. Listen to me, after 40 years, it works. So even if you don’t do it in the first, you know, few meetings with them, maybe six months down the line, people have contact them and say, oh, I remember you from that event. I was just wanting to check in with you because it’s something I think you can help me with. And that’s what you’re wanting.


You know, you’re wanting that, for them to remember you. And to tell other people about you. So there again, I’ve got my little tribe of ambassadors, my little, you know, Business Optimist ambassadors, people who will tell other people, because they like what I do. And they like my approach. So they’ll tell them. So that’s how it works. Isn’t it? It’s because I bet everybody on this call, you know, we all know lots of people, know each other on that call. And if somebody says to me, you know, about something, I’ll say, well, you have to speak to Carolyn McGregor. Cause she knows everything about loans and funding. You know, Nathalie, I need somebody who helps me with, you know, French speaking and helping children learn, you know French. So there’s always somebody that you will remember who can do that job.


So just to finish up to today with just the kind of the presentation, so what are you going to do to invest in your sales process? But it’s going to be different and it’s going to be meaningful. And you’re going to add something to that and make a change. Because if you think that it isn’t quite working for you, then you’ve got to tweak it and you’ve got to find out what you can change to make it better. So hopefully that’s helped in some way.


I’ve obviously got my website on there. I think I’ve put my email in the chat there. So it’s I’ve been in this, doing this a long time. I always love to hear from people and love to speak to people. There’s people who are on this call, who I’ve worked with. And hopefully they found it helpful me working with them. So please don’t be afraid to just contact me if you need some more support or some help. And it’s been lovely seeing you on the screens today.